Yes, but has it taken a licking?
Enjoy till ai with robot arm take your job..
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Antrax lead guitarist Dan Spitz went on to become a watch maker:
I would have expected guitar repair. One of my recent youtube channel finds was a young woman who repairs old guitars, rewinding pickups and such. Fascinating. I didn't realize one of the uses for Formvar (aside from films for use in electron microscopes) was insulation on electric guitar pickup wires.
Maybe I will take up watchmaking when I get sick of AI slop programming and offshore morons going wild with a Claude subscription.
If you read about Harrison's Chronometers you read of Rupert T. Gould who suffered a Nervous Breakdown, and it is said fell into watch repair as therapy, bringing them back to life.
There is something pleasantly backwards about a school teaching people to repair objects that were designed to last, while so much of the rest of the economy is optimized around replacement
One could argue that it’s everyone else who is backwards.
There's something interesting in maintaining items built to last when the objects themselves are maintained and kept for entertainment reasons. (Entertainment in the broad sense for enjoyment first and foremost over utility or practicality). I guess it strikes me like a master of maintaining toy trains or something along those lines, both evoking a sense of respect and sense of humanity for the craft and art of the thing, while paradoxically feeling that this is not "actually important" (whatever that means). Like someone being a great soccer player or michelin star chef -- the seriousness of this kind of endeavor is both inspiring and comical at the same time?
Maybe it should be viewed like the sign of a healthy ecosystem; if it can support "exotic birds" like these, it's stable and healthy.
It's promising and I'm glad to hear such a depth-oriented study of making things, taking time is still a thing in a fast world. People are paying to study this, nice
Yes, but notice the scale - 20 students, in a nation of 40+ million people.
We might call that a moral or poetic victory - but practically speaking, it's like an endangered human language which "still has over 100 native speakers". The future ain't looking good.
This is definitely something I've always thought about doing once I retire (if my generation gets to retire).
Just seems like the ideal way to spend the last period of your life; quietly making the small mechanical pieces and hopefully finally assembling something to be left behind.
Though I don't imagine I'd ever be able to produce something as small, accurate or intricate as these students are able to.
It's surprisingly easy to learn. I had a coworker who did this as a hobby while working in tech. Rolex hires people right off the street and trains them into professionals within weeks. Even as an amateur I've opened a few of the cheaper watches in my collection for some basic maintenance. When I retire it's one of the hobbies I hope to dive deeper into, it would be nice to be able to do my own oiling on most of my collection.
The main barrier to entry is that you need a lot of tools and supplies, I priced it out and to do a full service on an automatic I probably need $1000+ of tools and supplies.
As a Canadian cool! Never heard of this school before but on the west coast so probably why.
I've watched many watch repair videos online and the knowledge base required is huge. Also there are many tools needed which are not cheap. There is just so much to know that takes years to learn. Very cool that the knowledge is being shared and the skill passed on. In my small town there was only one guy who worked on clocks and watches. He passed a while back and his kids continue with his jewelry store but they now send out watches and clocks to another business as none of his kids learned how to do it.
I discovered this school right after discovering the Richard Mille clock in Quebec City [1] because the school is responsible for maintaining the clock.
1. https://www.ville.quebec.qc.ca/en/apropos/portrait/attraits/...
I live in Quebec and this is the first time I hear about it.
kid me thought AI would replace people doing insanely precise hand work. turns out it replaced me writing emails, and this school's still going strong after 80 years. lmao we got played
Give the Chinese some time.
They are doing incredible things with world models, and have an economy that really could do incredible things with robots wired to effective world models.
It won't surprise me at all if in 10 years LLMs are less of a big deal than world models
AI was supposed to do my laundry so that I could make art and code for fun but now the AI is coding and making art while I do laundry.
it's a funny meme but it's because software can iterate faster than hardware. Give it a few years for robot maids to come out that can do your laundry, then we'll see society upturn.
Profound and painful statement.
yep,sci-fi really got this one wrong lol.
The 8th highest voted HN submission is on mechanical watches. I imagine that's the type the watchmaking school involves themself with because afaik all high end watches are mechanical.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31261533 4 years ago 413 comments
They have a certain beauty in their intricate details working together for function. I do really like looking at the glass back which shows some details and you can see the piece that move to gain power.
Although it seems youd have to pay a lot to get an accurate one because I have a $250 mechanical Seiko and its time keeping is junk. It was mediocre when I got it and has gotten worse. It was $150 when I bought it so I suppose it would have been a good investment if it hadn't got beat up.
What kind of timekeeping do you consider "junk"? I'm currently wearing a $50 Chinese watch with a knock-off Seiko automatic movement in it, and I just now timed it out of curiosity at -5s/day.
That’s why I eventually settled with gshock that has solar charging and syncs time twice a day with radio towers (or bluetooth if you are somewhere in the world where there is no time radio signal)
Even rolex needs time setting, servicing to lube and clean metal parts, etc.
Gshock on the other hand will work for 10-15 years without a single manual time adjustment or battery swap needed.
Absolute unit.
This gold metal square one I especially love for summer:
https://www.casio.com/content/dam/casio/product-info/locales...
Those are not as good as they seem to be. I once had a g-shock mudmaster, seemingly an absolutely overbuilt thing, and it was resetting randomly in wet conditions. Maybe that could be fixed on warranty and it would work next 50 years flawlessly, but it didn’t inspire any confidence in that brand. They re-positioned themselves as a loud fashion brand, not a tool watch manufacturer.
In Japan they sell the Waveceptor brand Casio watches. I got a nice simple titanium (case back and strap) with solar, LCD alarms and radio control for around $200. It even auto re-centers the hands if they are exposed to strong magnets. You can also get these on eBay and Amazon though 3rd sellers.
bluetooth on watch sounds disturbing
So you can understand why the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_crisis had Swiss watchmakers fearing for their industry. Mechanical watches couldn't hope to compete with electronics on accuracy. Hence their pivot to understanding that watches are jewellery. Fancy, complicated jewellery with moving parts, but jewellery, and priced based on style and cachet, rather than on function.
If you are using a mechanical watch to keep time (accurately for long) you are doing it wrong
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> Although it seems youd have to pay a lot to get an accurate one because I have a $250 mechanical Seiko and its time keeping is junk. It was mediocre when I got it and has gotten worse. It was $150 when I bought it so I suppose it would have been a good investment if it hadn't got beat up.
You know you need to service mechanical watches regularly, right?
A 7S26 movement (Seiko's mass-produced budget workhorse) isn't that accurate (I think -35 to +45s per day IIRC?). But if you paid $250 secondhand you most likely have a 6R15 or similar inside, which should keep between -15s to +25s per day at worst if regularly serviced. Often you can get much better performance from these movements than the specs imply.
But ... you need to service that poor thing. For a 6R15, every 5 years at minimum, but as an old watchmaker I knew used to say -- a watch will tell you if it needs servicing earlier. Sounds like yours has been trying to get your attention for some time :)
(Otherwise, it's like complaining that the Porsche you haven't taken to a mechanic in the last decade doesn't drive so well any more ...)
You will never get quartz accuracy from any mechanical watch, but that's hardly the point.
(The ETA 2824-2 movement in the page you linked to -- the movement that powers most mid-range mechanical watches -- is substantially more accurate than these lower-range Seiko movements, although it's more costly as well.)
I took my Seiko 5 in for service mid last year, and after that it kept time well. I don't loose more than a minute over a week or more. But, I specifically sought out a mechanical watch because they're interesting to me. As a software developer, I feel like I don't need another computer strapped to my arm. I appreciate the intricate mechanics.
>You know you need to service mechanical watches regularly, right?
Mostly, yeah, but I have some nicer pieces that have been in my rotation for decades with only the barest minimum of services. Like, I think my Omega (ca. 1998) has been serviced maybe once, and it keeps great time.
> all high end watches are mechanical.
No, most high end male jewelry are mechanical watches (and much of women-oriented jewelry as well).
High end watches are such a solved problem we don't even talk about them anymore. Either the G-shock, the Garmin watches, or the Apple Watch run circles around mechanical watches in terms of functionality with each satisfying a different niche (100% self-contained, long lived smart functionality, glance-oriented integration with full-stack personal tech ecosystem).
Well... your high-end is not my high-end.
Truly high-end luxury watches are priced in many multiples of 100,000 $ and are all mechanical.
I will never be able to afford any of them.
For example, this (pre-owned, good condition):
https://www.chrono24.com/patekphilippe/platinum-perpetual-ca...
I think most people when they hear "high-end watch" picture some sort of mechanical jewelry watch. When G-shocks, Garmins, and Apple Watches are a few hundred dollars and well-known luxury watch brands start at a few thousand, it's reasonable to consider the latter more "high end".
Personally I'm not interested in owning a luxury watch, I like the Garmin ones.
> When G-shocks, Garmins, and Apple Watches are a few hundred dollars and well-known luxury watch brands start at a few thousand,
The price of the most expensive Garmin a quick internet search gave me is $3,100; the most expensive G-SHOCK €8,800 ⇒ IMHO, G-SHOCK definitely is a luxury brand.
Apple Watches, relative to those, are cheap at €999 max.
And regardless, Apple products aren't "luxury" anything. They're just computing products, with a range of buildout from low to high. Not a single thing Apple has ever made has been in the luxury category.
They're more like VW. A range of products low to high, but more expensive than domestics.
Luxury cars, luxury products are typically hand made, extremely niche. Apple is certainly not niche market.
I think they were specifically bristling at the implication that 'high-end' was mainly relating to price as opposed to functionality. The most expensive watches are expensive for reasons of fashion while being inferior in terms of functionality.
That's what "high end" means.
> The most expensive watches are expensive for reasons of fashion while being inferior in terms of functionality.
... and for reasons of money laundering and tax evasion, similar to artwork but even better suited. No customs official anywhere will flag and interrogate you about the watch on your wrist, the younger ones probably won't even know if you're having a watch worth six figures on your wrist or some cheap knockoff.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. Any dense, non-perishable store of value will be eventually used in this way.
My Apple Watch has 3 days of battery tops.
You don’t buy an Apple Watch for its battery life, you buy it for its many other features.
If battery life is important there are other much better options.
Garmin venu series has 10 days which I love.
Is it a Seiko 5 (self winding)? Yeah, those aren't that accurate, but I wouldn't call them "junk" - they do lose or gain a minute or two a day in my experience - I generally correct mine every couple of days against my phone or computer though.
> I generally correct mine every couple of days against my phone or computer though.
Why do you put up with that?
If your Seiko is losing a minute a day it badly needs a service to adjust the timing.
I have a 1950s mark 2 Shturmanskie as my main watch, the same model Yuri Gagarin wore into space. It's a 'frankenwatch' in that it's been assembled from parts of other watches, albeit in this case they're the right parts from the right period except the dial, which is a reproduction to avoid the considerable amount of radium the Soviets liked to put in their pilot watches.
Now that is an unreliable watch! It'll usually lose maybe a minute a day which is actually pretty decent for something from when Khrushchev was in power, but it likes to randomly stop or occasionally start running fast or slow according to its mood. I'm not sure how much of it is because it's a Soviet frankenwatch and how much is that it's hard to find people who'll work on Soviet watches in the UK.
Marshall from Wristwatch Revival has refurbished Soviet watches.
A minute or two a DAY??? I get pissed off that the microwave in my kitchen loses a minute a week!
Yeah, but I'm sure your microwave isn't mechanical. What makes a mechanical watch cool, even a cheap one, is that there are no electronics at all - just gears and springs and things. I think that's worth a trivial bit of inaccuracy even if a boring $10 digital watch can easily beat a $200 mechanical one in accuracy.
My guy a mechanical watch should lose like a minute a _month_, tops. Get your watch serviced.
A real, completely mechanical watch? No battery or crystal? I'm sure my Seiko isn't be best there is and maybe it could be improved with servicing, but I think electronics have given people unreasonable expectations of accuracy
No, the people responding to you are correct: even the crummiest mechanical watches should not drift by more than 10-15 seconds/day. COSC certification, which most nice mechanical watches have, requires no more than 2 minutes/month (4 seconds/day) of drift, and most do even better than that, 1-2 seconds/day is normal.
If your Seiko is really drifting by minutes per day, something's badly wrong with it and you should get it serviced.
My grandfather was a master watchmaker and jeweler who learned his trade in the Soviet Union and then in Europe. After emigrating to Toronto after the war, he opened his own jewelry store, where he repaired watches and clocks, as well as crafted and repaired fine jewelry.
He was a true master of his craft and built a successful business based on his exceptional skill. He Was well known for his craftsmanship and his remarkable ability to repair virtually any watch or clock, no matter how complex.
Jewelers from across the city would bring him pieces that no one else could repair. For antique and vintage timepieces, he would often fabricate tiny replacement parts by hand when originals were no longer available. When he retired, very large companies would still come to his home to repair incredibly expensive pieces. He liked to tinker and would quietly work in his little home shop, pipe burning, radio playing, and visitors coming throughout the day to have him fix things.
When he passed, he had 10's of 1000's of watch parts in all these little bags that were all tagged and in boxes. We ended up giving them away to one of his customers who own several Jewelry stores. Had I known I would have offered them to this school along with 100's of watches he kept for parts.
The image of him in the home shop with the radio playing and people still bringing him supposedly unfixable things is wonderful
My father was a watchmaker. Fond memories of going with him in his van to the various jewellers he did work for picking up and dropping off. I remember being given a big metal lamp from his workshop when he passed away and realising the body of the lamp was not isolated from the incoming power, although luckily not at mains voltage (not what killed him).
Fond memories and a slightly terrifying electrical inheritance
Maybe it was a touch lamp? (Like a clapper but works when you touch the body not through sound)
Not unless touch lamps are supposed to give you an electric shock :)
Some of the older/cheaper touch lights did/do give a slight shock! It was a different time lol
Is this still a viable career?
I wonder too. About a year ago I dropped a ~1970s Citizen mechanical watch[1] of mine and it shattered into a few pieces. I took it to a small-device repair place that advertised they can fix watches. The guy there said it was out of his abilities, but his business could send it out to some guy in California to repair. I took him up on that and a few weeks later it came back in one piece. So I guess someone out there is making a business of it. Cost me like $200 which is more than I paid for the watch, hahah.
[1] This model! https://www.fratellowatches.com/citizen-homer-second-setting...
highly doubtful if it was your career and you are just starting
probably would make more $ from it if you were a YouTuber or TikTok creator and did "watchmaking" content.
I would think so, in the same way instrument maker or painting maintenance can be careers: not for many, but a decent career for a few aficionados.
It’s not likely to employ millions of people, but there will be demand from people with serious money. For instrument making, research labs will need specialized glass parts, for example; for painting maintenance, museums have a need to keep their centuries-old pieces in the best condition. For watches, if you pay a few million for a watch, paying 10k a year for maintenance should not be a problem. For that money, you can make a decent living of 20 customers a year in many countries.
Availability of parts is something of an issue --- couldn't get my father's 27-jewel Seiko repaired for want of parts, and still trying to justify the expense of either salvaging from another watch or paying someone to fabricate a replacement part.
I mean people do make a living doing it, but my understanding is that it requires a lot of hustle—as a hobbyist you can just take your time and meditate and take a million pictures, but if you're trying to make a living you have to focus on volume, volume, volume... So you have to have a system, this one goes in the cleaner and you are immediately disassembling the next, another is in a tray next to the machine that tells you how fast or slow it's ticking... It is maybe less glamorous than it first sounds.
Can one end up working for TAG out of this for example? What does it take for that career ladder to happen?
Probably going to the school above is a good start.
To my understanding it depends mostly on the applicant age.
Watchmaking can take a heavy toll on eyesight, due to working with magnifying glasses on tiny parts during decades. Also each brand has unique processes and machinery, for which they have expensive learning courses.
Thus they would rarely consider applicants past their forties even if they have experience and favorable relations.
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It depends on what you consider viable, and your level.
As someone in love with fountain pens and ink, I can tell you that there are absolutely wealthy pen turners, private designers, and the same with watches.
I'm glad fountain pens came up here. There's a shop a few hours away from where I stay in an old town in India called the "Pen Hospital". It was a thriving business in the 60s when my father went to college. Lots of people came there mostly to repair fountain pens. He's mostly just a stationery store right now but if you take a fountain pen there for repair, he does it for free just as a nod to the tradition I guess.
My friend told me when he visited India that they repair everything over there: it's a beautiful thing IMO
That's an exaggeration. Things are not as repairable as they used to be and people are not as thrifty as they used to be. However, I do think the culture of repairing things is strong and mostly financially motivated.
My dream is to visit this store. I've heard that it's by far the greatest modern fountain pen store in the world. I'm dying to go, just for this. I've ordered from them before - all the way to Canada and Israel. A gem, might be my favourite store in the world.
I don't know if that's the same. There's another here called Kim and Co. which makes ebonite pens without fillers. They became popular via. social media and a lot of people ordered pens from them. Perhaps that's the one you're referring to?
No, I'm referring to Pen Hospital in Kolkata: https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/kolkata-pen-hospital. By ordered, I mean had friends who have stumbled across it and brought me things. If there were a website mind you.
I don't have the socials, so I don't see things like what you mentioned.
I believe this is exactly the kind of high-paying job that is difficult for AI to replace.
Correct, AI will not replathe 3 high-paying watch maker jobs that exist. You are the best kind of correct, technically. But you are distracting from the fact that most people aren't doing anything even remotely physical related in the space that some people posit will be decimated by AI: white-collar jobs where you are a keyboard jockey all day.
Basically anything that is a luxury good is probably safe from AI. If people are buying it for status or high performance reasons, they aren’t going to pick the low end AI slop version.
Why?
Many modern watch parts are CNC machined, often the finishing is done by hand such as zaratsu polishing - but even that is a repetitive motion that can be mechanised.
I would not be surprised if given enough time even what we have today - a decent VLA model + some other specialised models, 6-axis CNC machine, an SMD pick and place etc would be capable of designing, manufacturing and assembling a mechanical watch.
Yes, and it's a great example of an industry that was completely decimated by automation - you can get a functional watch for a fiver, whereas back when every watch was handmade and a de-facto inheritance piece.
But bespoke, handmade, high value, low volume stuff is still around.
Unless they’re replaced by humans controlled by AI(look at the various research for BCIs or for gene therapy that allows for the possibility for you to be controlled by radio frequencies), then they’re very easily replaced.
> gene therapy that allows for the possibility for you to be controlled by radio frequencies
What. Can you cite this research?
I don't know how high paying it is, although I can see how it can be, especially given there is a shortage of watchmakers in the developed world, even in Switzerland.
Is that because of a lack of interest or because the requirements and education required are just very high level and specialised?
Mechanical timepieces are a luxury item, and these students are essentially artists in training. Wrist time was solved in the late 1970's with the commoditization of quartz movements. These 'jobs' will get replaced by AI at approximately the same pace as your local sculptor.
Come to think of it, it makes sense; in this day and age, every industry is evolving so rapidly that the future remains quite uncertain.
I don't know if watchmaking is one of them, but there are a bunch of traditional crafts which are actually approaching a danger point because there aren't enough up-and-coming acolytes in the discipline to replace them, even though the craft still enjoys enough popular support to have a thriving economy.
Anecdotally, I see enough mechanical watches on wrists and in duty-free shops that I imagine there's enough of a pipeline there for at least one school. Much like vinyl records it doesn't appear to actually be going away even if it's superfluous.
Good example of that is engraving:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH3MtWln2Og
(ages ago, I was in touch with a person who described himself as "the last hand engraver in New York City" when considering an apprenticeship --- couldn't commit to the move --- always wondered if he found a successor)
I am literally wearing a watch right now that was produced without any of these artisans’ specialized labor and which boasts among its features access to AI.
In a very real sense I have replaced use of the skills of watchmakers with AI.
Sorry about that. To be fair most watchmakers were already put out of work by quartz oscillators and integrated circuits in the 1980s.
Not really. No one wants a Rolex or Omega with ChatGPT in it.
Yet most people in the watch industry will suggest that the Apple Watch was a boon for the industry because it retrained people to wear a watch, a fashion that was being abandoned.
I’m one of those people. Wore watches regularly through my mid 20s, completely fell out of the habit as I spent more years working from home and my routine around “getting ready for the day” loosened, and the Apple Watch was the thing that got me to put something on my wrist again - until I got sick of the screen and kept wearing watches, but now analogue ones.
you need AI to tell the time?
Suprising amount of people do not know how to read time from the "classical" watches and clocks (those with hands).
Reason is very simple - they dont own clocks with hands when theh are kids.
Not knowing is fine, but a refusal to learn is not. I think that's the major issue with first social media / short attention span content, modern media over-explaining stuff, and nowadays with AI. Even if they get an answer from AI they won't take it in, just pass it on / read it out / apply it to whatever they're doing now and promptly forget it.
(I'm generalizing / being a cranky old man and I'm not even that old)
But... this is a condition that can be changed within 1 minute? (From "do not know" to "know").
Sure it takes longer to get proficient, but learning it is quicker than learning e.g. Roman numerals or how to tie a necktie.
The reason that you bought your watch and the reason that other people buy these hand crafted mechanical watches are very, very different. Once upon a time, utility used to be what necessitated an accurate movement, and it came at great cost because of the skill, knowledge, precision, and artistic talent needed to make one; this justified further embellishing the movement with a beautiful case and band because it would be in poor taste to make something that is both expensive and ugly when your primary consumers would be aristocrats. Eventually timepieces became commodified as industrialization made their manufacture feasible at a larger scale, and later then the advent of the quartz crystal made mechanical movements functionally obsolete as a means of telling time accurately. Approaching perfect timekeeping in a mechanical movement is not meant to be utilitarian, but rather a practice in artistry. Mechanical watches are jewelry, and jewelry irrationally commands the price that any luxury does because it's a matter of taste and not utility. Nobody buying a Patek Philippe is doing so because they want millisecond accuracy via atmoic clock GPS signals - they buy Seikos for that.
I think the fact that you can have a compact device on your wrist that accurately keeps time all without any battery or circuitry is really remarkable as well. Moreover that the “technology superior” smart watches are kind of distracting and don’t have a great deal of use value. My watch tells the time and the date, that’s really all I need it for
I long ago realized I hate how uncomfortable a watch on my wrist is. For a while I used a pocket watch until pocket sized cell phones became affordable.
I have a friend who got an English and Creative Writing degree from a liberal arts college, and then immediately went back to trade school for band instrument repair. It's not particularly lucrative, as trades go, but it does seem a lot more future proof than most careers.
I recently left my career as a software engineer to train to become a violin maker. Couldn't be happier.
Also looking to leave software, lots of options in front of me. Are you still in training, or are you making a living from it now?
Haha, so you're going to do something AI can't replace, right?
Thinking about it. I'm pretty attracted to the idea of a career with some kind of protectionist licensing system, like doctor or actuary, but that may just be staving off the inevitable. Might teach high school.
After I got laid off in the US, I moved to a mountain town in New Zealand planning on being a ski lift operator while I think about the future, but got a software developer job by accident instead.
I still get emails from NZ begging for people to come fill IT jobs
Taxis had a protectionist system. Took a single competitor with deep pockets and disregard for the system to upend the whole thing.
Sure but it’s also a microscopically small component of the country’s overall economy.
canada's economy is roughly slightly below Mississipi with increasing amount of migration from third world countries putting strain on its resources and with almost no plans other than to tax the already overstretched middle class
its almost the exact dilemma in Western Europe except the only saving grace is military security is guaranteed by its larger and richer neighbor
The Canada hater has logged on.
Canada ranks 4th.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/how-canada-would-rank-as-th...
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Canada's GDP is $2.2t vs $165b for Mississippi. Immigration rate is decreasing.
thanks for bringing this up and I have to reiterate the importance of per capita which is something that is curiously ignored in these discussions but I'm sure you know the difference from just measuring GDP alone and just forgot about it
Canada's nominal GDP per capita is roughly $53,800 USD, which places it nearly on par with Mississippi
also Canada admits people from third world countries at a per-capita rate roughly four times higher than the United States, with none of the enforcement agencies capable of tackling illegal immigration which a lot of this demographic engages in. It's difficult for ICE now imagine Canada which has no such enforcement on the same scale
my point is that Canada has a smaller economy but imports more from the third world than its much richer and powerful neighbor.
this is not a sustainable arrangement.
And still, Canada has higher living standards, better healthcare, school system, criminal justice and lower murder rates.
No, Canada is not as poor as Missisipy.
If you don't say the words “per capita”, you don't get credit for having said them.
> It's difficult for ICE now imagine Canada which has no such enforcement on the same scale
A massive federal agency rounding up illegal immigrants actually isn't that effective, as has been seen in the USA. What actually works is making it impossible to find a job or housing without proof of citizenship - which is being done in Canada BTW
cnada does not make employment or housing impossible without proof of citizenship there are massive illegal labor market especially in the construction food service jobs. Also the check is minimal and poorly enforced or tracked. It's the same situation in rentals there are routine subletting via cash one of my partner so again the enforcement mechanisms fall apart here and you will see this to be a repeating pattern throughout canadian society where there are laws but are hardly enforced or resources spent equally.
if illegal presence has almost no chance of interior enforcement, then overstaying or working illegally becomes a rational bet. If arrests, detention, removals, and employer raids become credible again, behavior changes that's the whole point of ICE raids they know they can't deport millions of people but to change the behavior of the demographic that they are targeting. This is something that Canada neither has the political capital to pursue.
> canada's economy is roughly slightly below Mississipi
No, it isn't. Not true in absolute terms, not true per capita, not true adjusted for purchasing power.
It is true per capita in USD dollars due to the weak Canadian dollar. Mississippi has better purchasing power
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absolutely. its the "poorest" state too
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No, it isn't, at least according to here [1] (data from worldbank). This is in nominal USD as almost all calculations of GDP. If you compare by purchasing power, Canada likely pulls out ahead since Canada has a lower price level than the US [2] (can't find Mississippi-specific price level).
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ... section "U.S. states by GDP per capita if they were sovereign states"
You can’t just say “no it isn’t” when your own link disagrees with you.
From your link per capita GDP for Mississippi $55,877 in 2025 compared with $60,305 in 2026 for Canada [1]. That seems pretty similar.
My point was that when the Canadian dollar is weak GDP in USD decreases while when it’s strong GDP increases without anything about the country’s output changing - that’s the challenging of comparing by normalizing against a single currency.
I’ll let you do your own purchasing power math but Mississippi has significantly cheaper prices as part of America than Canada. Canada has a stronger safety net but that isn’t about purchasing power to much other than health insurance being baked into your taxes.
When I see these GDP comparisons between Mississippi and Europe or Canada I have to ask does anyone honestly believe that life in Mississippi is better than in any of those other two places? Especially if you have any knowledge of Mississippi. If anything this example shows us the limitations of using this statistic.
It always depends. You get people in Mississippi who don't have electric, pump water by hand and use an outhouse. (They are not Amish or otherwise religiously against technology they just can't afford it) you also find engineers and doctors making as much as anywhere else in the US.
Mississippi has great weather year round. Canada gets really cold (most of those I know in Canada live in Manitoba). Your standard of living without electric is higher in Mississippi than in Canada in winter. If you are the typical person in Mississippi with electric service you have a nice life. Sure it is a little better elsewhere but not by much. You likely have more toys than someone in Europe.
Most Canadians and Americans I'm guessing takes their cues from movies like My Cousin Vinny when they think Mississippi and probably have never ventured through it. I have. It is a very safe and clean city. There are ton of engineers and professionals out there making equal or more than what creme of the creme in Canada take home after taxes (another major point besides the exchange rate that puts Canadians behind America).
This is downtown Jackson, it looks to be in far better shape than many Canadian cities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQkKjiYu-qU
